Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Let Pray

Postby ScifiTom » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:34 pm

To everyone

I really got some sad news right now: The Father Priest came today to do a blessing for my dad even my dad might died today or tomorrow or this weekend. We also found out a nurse is coming even she going to tried to bring the last food into his system of stomach and tomorrow another nurse, oh well might bring an injection kneedle to take into his heart. He is weak even so weak that it look like he not going to live long. So please pray for my dad to rest in peace even he will died soon. But I don't know when!!!
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Sans Souci » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:24 pm

My thoughts and prayers with you and your dad, ScifiTom.
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby ScifiTom » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:52 pm

Sans Souci wrote:My thoughts and prayers with you and your dad, ScifiTom.


To Sans

Thanks Sans, even I am going through a lot even right now. We don't know, even everything going ok for now even the nurse was nice that she won't do the kneedle shot even what she did was give him a new oxygen with tube. But that didn't go well, one bit. He playing with his new tube. You know I get so around up and scary to death, of going through this even it scary me so much that I love my dad so much. It hurts me so much, that I am going to lose him. But I don't know when it going to happen. Everything going slow even this oxygen is suppose to help him, even he so weak!!!

I take thing so seriously into criminal law. My dad was a lawyer and it prove so much that on many parts. I do need to cool down a lot even I care him so much that I just don't want to lose him. He might not make it to Christmas 2017. You believe it that you only got 17 days left until you read this. I pray for a miracle if my dad does make it to Christmas even I am not sure he will make it. I love him so much and thanks again Sans and talk to you soon Sans!!!
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Annella » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:43 am

Thinking of you Tom, and hoping your precious Dad has a peaceful transition forward to his astral travels.

Namaste :heart:
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Re: Let Pray

Postby Bill Williams » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:11 am

ScifiTom wrote:To everyone

I really got some sad news right now: The Father Priest came today to do a blessing for my dad even my dad might died today or tomorrow or this weekend. We also found out a nurse is coming even she going to tried to bring the last food into his system of stomach and tomorrow another nurse, oh well might bring an injection kneedle to take into his heart. He is weak even so weak that it look like he not going to live long. So please pray for my dad to rest in peace even he will died soon. But I don't know when!!!

Blessings to you and your dad, Tom.
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Re: Let Pray

Postby Numbers » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:05 am

ScifiTom wrote:To everyone

I really got some sad news right now: The Father Priest came today to do a blessing for my dad even my dad might died today or tomorrow or this weekend. We also found out a nurse is coming even she going to tried to bring the last food into his system of stomach and tomorrow another nurse, oh well might bring an injection kneedle to take into his heart. He is weak even so weak that it look like he not going to live long. So please pray for my dad to rest in peace even he will died soon. But I don't know when!!!


I'm saddened to hear this news about your dad.

I hope that you continue your efforts for the wrongfully convicted.
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby ScifiTom » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:28 pm

To Bill & Number

Thank you Bill & Number even I am still waiting for the nurse to come even she hasn't come yet? He still out even I can't tell if he alive. It like he a zombie, of right now. It not pretty one bit. I am waiting for the nurse and she what she going to do. But we will wait and see, and thanks again Bill & Number!!!
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby ScifiTom » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:33 pm

Annella wrote:Thinking of you Tom, and hoping your precious Dad has a peaceful transition forward to his astral travels.

Namaste :heart:


To Anne

Thank you Anne, even I know your good on cases even I got another case that I have no name of who she is? There might be a case that is wrongful convicted in Las Vegas Nevada and it the woman who wearing sweat pants and the letter on the Sweat pants is: CCDC

Here is the picture right now: Image
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Numbers » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:40 am

For those wishing some insight into the possible motivation of the police, prosecutor, and courts in covering up the mistreatment Amanda Knox received during the Nov. 6, 2007 interrogation, here is the text of CP (Italian Criminal Code) Article 377-bis.

"Salvo che il fatto costituisca più grave reato, chiunque, con violenza o minaccia, o con offerta o promessa di denaro o di altra utilità, induce a non rendere dichiarazioni o a rendere dichiarazioni mendaci la persona chiamata a rendere davanti alla autorità giudiziaria dichiarazioni utilizzabili in un procedimento penale, quando questa ha la facoltà di non rispondere, è punito con la reclusione da due a sei anni."

English translation by Google (with a little help from me):

Except when the act constitutes a more serious offense, anyone, with violence or threat, or with an offer or promise of money or other benefits, induces a person called to make statements to the judicial authority that are usable in a criminal proceedings, when that person has the right not to answer, shall be punished with imprisonment of from two to six years.

Source: http://www.altalex.com/documents/news/2 ... -giustizia

And to be clear, a suspect or an accused is a person who has the "right not to answer" under Italian law (and ECHR case-law). So it applies to Amanda Knox and to Raffaele Sollecito in the interrogations of Nov. 5/6, 2007 and after that date. And for those who doubt that they were suspects during the interrogation, recall that the Gemelli CSC panel stated that they were or had become suspects during that interrogation. And that is why Amanda Knox was charged with calunnia (CP Article 368) against the police for testifying during the Massei court trial that she had been hit and threatened by the police during the Nov. 5/6 interrogation.
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Numbers » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:03 pm

Let's do some analysis of the Boninsegna judgment motivation report, first to understand what Italian crime(s) Amanda Knox was accused of, since some have called it "defamation".

The charges against Knox are listed at the beginning of the Italian language document and translated to English; see:

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/motivation-reports-appeal-documents/

To begin, there appears to be some small errors of translation that may be confusing to the English reader. The Italian text, after identifying 1. the preliminary hearing judge, Ann Liguori; 2. the defendant, Knox, indicating that she is absent; and 3. the defense lawyers, Luciano Ghirga of the Perugia bar and Carlo dalla Vedova of the Rome bar, goes on to state "Imputato del reato...." which should have been translated, for clarity, as "Accused of the crime of...." {rather than as "Defendant of the crime of....}.

There follows a listing (in a section labeled (a) in the English translation) of the crimes allegedly committed by Knox against some police officers during the Massei court trial, and, in a second section labeled (b) in the English and the Italian, another listing of the crimes allegedly committed by Knox against some police officers and prosecutor Mignini on another occasion, also during the Massei court trial.

The crimes alleged Knox in Section (a) are: articles 81 first paragraph, 368 and 61 paragrahs 2) and 10) [of the Italian] Criminal Code for statements made in court on 13 March 2009; the ones in Section (b) are: articles 81 first paragraph, 368 and 61 paragraphs 2) and 10) [of the Italian] Criminal Code for statements made in court on 12 and 13 June 2009. The English translation for Section (b) misidentifies the source of the Italian Criminal Code articles as being from the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure. The Italian Criminal Code is, in Italian, Codice Penale and is abbreviated "c.p." following the number; I will abbreviate it as CP before the word "Article" in this post.

The main or underlying criminal charge for Sections (a) and (b) is CP Article 368. That article defines the crime of calunnia, that is, the crime of false accusation, and not the crimes (violations of law) or torts (civil-suit allegations) of defamation, slander, or calumny as generally understood in the English-speaking countries.

"Art. 368.
Calunnia.

Chiunque, con denunzia, querela, richiesta o istanza, anche se anonima o sotto falso nome, diretta all'autorità giudiziaria o ad un'altra autorità che a quella abbia obbligo di riferirne o alla Corte penale internazionale, incolpa di un reato taluno che egli sa innocente, ovvero simula a carico di lui le tracce di un reato, è punito con la reclusione da due a sei anni (1).
La pena è aumentata se s'incolpa taluno di un reato pel quale la legge stabilisce la pena della reclusione superiore nel massimo a dieci anni, o un'altra pena più grave.
La reclusione è da quattro a dodici anni, se dal fatto deriva una condanna alla reclusione superiore a cinque anni; è da sei a venti anni, se dal fatto deriva una condanna all'ergastolo; e si applica la pena dell'ergastolo, se dal fatto deriva una condanna alla pena di morte (2).

(1) Comma così modificato dall’art. 10, comma 3, L. 20 dicembre 2012, n. 237. Il testo precedentemente in vigore era il seguente: “Chiunque, con denunzia, querela, richiesta o istanza, anche se anonima o sotto falso nome, diretta all'autorità giudiziaria o ad un'altra autorità che a quella abbia obbligo di riferirne, incolpa di un reato taluno che egli sa innocente, ovvero simula a carico di lui le tracce di un reato, è punito con la reclusione da due a sei anni.”.
(2) La pena di morte per i delitti previsti dal codice penale è stata abolita dall'art. 1 del D.Lgs.Lgt. 10 agosto 1944, n. 224."

Here is a (rough) Google translation:

Art. 368.
False Accusation {Google translates as: Slander}.

Anyone, with denunciation, complaint, request or request, even if anonymous or under a false name, directed to the judicial authority or to another authority which is obliged to report it or to the International Criminal Court, shall charge a crime that he he knows he is innocent, or he simulates the traces of a crime against him, he is punished with imprisonment from two to six years (1).
The penalty is increased if one is accused of a crime for which the law establishes a maximum sentence of imprisonment of up to ten years, or another more serious sentence.
The imprisonment is from four to twelve years, if the sentence results in a sentence of imprisonment of more than five years; it is from six to twenty years, if from the fact comes a sentence to life imprisonment; and the penalty of life imprisonment applies if the sentence results in a sentence to the death penalty (2).

(1) Paragraph as amended by art. 10, paragraph 3, Law 20 December 2012, n. 237. The text previously in force was the following: "Anyone, with denunciation, complaint, request or request, even if anonymous or under false name, directed to the judicial authority or to another authority which is obliged to report it, he accuses a crime that he knows he is innocent, or he simulates the traces of a crime against him, he is punished with imprisonment from two to six years ".
(2) The death penalty for crimes provided for by the Penal Code has been abolished by art. 1 of the D.Lgs.Lgt. 10 August 1944, n. 224.

Source: http://www.altalex.com/documents/news/2014/09/30/dei-delitti-contro-l-amministrazione-della-giustizia

CP Article 81 is a law that allows or mandates an increase in the sentence for a crime when that crime is committed in complicity with another or when there is a repeated or continuous crime. The application to the Knox case is that each appeal to a higher court was considered to be a repetition of the crime of calunnia.

"Art. 81.
Concorso formale. Reato continuato.

È punito con la pena che dovrebbe infliggersi per la violazione più grave aumentata sino al triplo chi con una sola azione od omissione viola diverse disposizioni di legge ovvero commette più violazioni della medesima disposizione di legge.
Alla stessa pena soggiace chi con più azioni od omissioni, esecutive di un medesimo disegno criminoso, commette anche in tempi diversi più violazioni della stessa o di diverse disposizioni di legge.
Nei casi preveduti da quest'articolo, la pena non può essere superiore a quella che sarebbe applicabile a norma degli articoli precedenti.
Fermi restando i limiti indicati al terzo comma, se i reati in concorso formale o in continuazione con quello più grave sono commessi da soggetti ai quali sia stata applicata la recidiva prevista dall'articolo 99, quarto comma, l'aumento della quantità di pena non può essere comunque inferiore ad un terzo della pena stabilita per il reato più grave. (1)

(1) Comma aggiunto dall’art. 5, comma 1, della L. 5 dicembre 2005, n. 251"

Google translation (rough):

Art. 81.
Formal complicity {Google has "competition"}. Crime {repeated or} continued.

[HILITE]It is punished with the penalty that should be inflicted for the more serious violation increased up to three times the one with a single action or omission violates various provisions of law or commits multiple violations of the same legal provision.[/HILITE]
The same sentence is subject to those with multiple actions or omissions, executive of the same criminal design, also commits at different times more violations of the same or different provisions of the law.
In the cases foreseen by this article, the penalty can not be higher than that which would be applicable according to the previous articles.
Without prejudice to the limits indicated in the third paragraph, if the offenses in the formal competition or continuation with the more serious one are committed by persons to whom the recidivism provided for in the fourth paragraph of Article 99 has been applied, the increase in the amount of however, it may be less than one third of the penalty established for the most serious crime. (1)

(1) Paragraph added by the art. 5, paragraph 1, of Law 5 December 2005, n. 251

Source: http://www.altalex.com/documents/news/2014/12/09/del-reato

CP Article 61 defines common aggravating circumstances that may be applied to a crime to increase the sentence. I will only show the relevant ones, paragraphs or numbers 2 and 10, in the translation to avoid excessive length. The two aggravating circumstances were that the alleged calunnia was alleged 1) to have been committed to protect someone else or to gain some advantage of covering up another crime, and 2) to be directed at public officials.

"Art. 61.
Circostanze aggravanti comuni.

Aggravano il reato quando non ne sono elementi costitutivi o circostanze aggravanti speciali le circostanze seguenti:
1) l'avere agito per motivi abietti o futili;
2) l'aver commesso il reato per eseguirne od occultarne un altro, ovvero per conseguire o assicurare a sé o ad altri il prodotto o il profitto o il prezzo ovvero la impunità di un altro reato;
3) l'avere, nei delitti colposi, agito nonostante la previsione dell'evento;
4) l'avere adoperato sevizie, o l'aver agito con crudeltà verso le persone;
5) l’avere profittato di circostanze di tempo, di luogo o di persona, anche in riferimento all’età, tali da ostacolare la pubblica o privata difesa; (1)
6) l'avere il colpevole commesso il reato durante il tempo, in cui si è sottratto volontariamente alla esecuzione di un mandato o di un ordine di arresto o di cattura o di carcerazione, spedito per un precedente reato;
7) l'avere, nei delitti contro il patrimonio o che comunque offendono il patrimonio, ovvero nei delitti determinati da motivi di lucro, cagionato alla persona offesa dal reato un danno patrimoniale di rilevante gravità;
8) l'avere aggravato o tentato di aggravare le conseguenze del delitto commesso;
9) l'avere commesso il fatto con abuso dei poteri, o con violazione dei doveri inerenti a una pubblica funzione o a un pubblico servizio, ovvero alla qualità di ministro di un culto;
10) l'avere commesso il fatto contro un pubblico ufficiale o una persona incaricata di un pubblico servizio, o rivestita della qualità di ministro del culto cattolico o di un culto ammesso nello Stato, ovvero contro un agente diplomatico o consolare di uno Stato estero, nell'atto o a causa dell'adempimento delle funzioni o del servizio;
11) l'avere commesso il fatto con abuso di autorità o di relazioni domestiche, ovvero con abuso di relazioni di ufficio, di prestazione d'opera, di coabitazione, o di ospitalità;
11-bis) l’avere il colpevole commesso il fatto mentre si trova illegalmente sul territorio nazionale; (2) (3)
11-ter) l’aver commesso un delitto contro la persona ai danni di un soggetto minore all’interno o nelle adiacenze di istituti di istruzione o formazione; (4)
11-quater) l'avere il colpevole commesso un delitto non colposo durante il periodo in cui era ammesso ad una misura alternativa alla detenzione in carcere. (5)
11-quinquies) l'avere, nei delitti non colposi contro la vita e l'incolumità individuale, contro la libertà personale nonché nel delitto di cui all'articolo 572, commesso il fatto in presenza o in danno di un minore di anni diciotto ovvero in danno di persona in stato di gravidanza. (6)

(1) Il precedente comma che recitava: “l'avere profittato di circostanze di tempo, di luogo o di persona, tali da ostacolare la pubblica o privata difesa;” è stato così sostituito dall’art. 1, comma 7, della L. 15 luglio 2009, n. 94
(2) Comma aggiunto dall’art. 1, comma 1, lett. f) del D.L. 23 maggio 2008, n. 92, convertito con modificazioni, nella L. 24 luglio 2008, n. 125. Successivamente la Corte Costituzionale, con sentenza 5-8 luglio 2010, n. 249 (Gazz. Uff. 14 luglio 2010, n. 28 - Prima serie speciale), ha dichiarato, tra l'altro, "l’illegittimità costituzionale dell’art. 61, numero 11-bis, del codice penale".
(3) A norma dell’art. 1, comma 1, della L. 15 luglio 2009, n. 94, la disposizione di cui a questo numero si intende riferita ai cittadini di Paesi non appartenenti all’Unione europea e agli apolidi. La Corte Costituzionale, in via consequenziale, ai sensi dell’art. 27 della legge 11 marzo 1953, n. 87, ha successivamente dichiarato "l’illegittimità costituzionale dell’art. 1, comma 1, della legge 15 luglio 2009, n. 94 (Disposizioni in materia di sicurezza pubblica)";
(4) Numero aggiunto dall’art. 3, comma 20, della L. 15 luglio 2009, n. 94.
(5) Numero aggiunto dall’art. 3, L. 26 novembre 2010, n. 199.
(6) Numero aggiunto dall’art. 1, comma 1, D.L. 14 agosto 2013, n. 93, convertito, con modificazioni, dalla L. 15 ottobre 2013, n. 119."

Art. 61.
Common Aggravating circumstances.

Aggravate the crime when there are no constitutive elements or special aggravating circumstances the following circumstances:

2) the committing of the crime in order to execute or conceal another one, or to gain or secure to himself or to others the product or the profit or the price or the impunity of another offense;

10) having committed the act against a public official or a person in charge of a public service, or dressed as a minister of Catholic worship or a cult admitted to the State, or against a diplomatic or consular agent of a foreign State, in the act or due to the fulfillment of the functions or service;

Source: http://www.altalex.com/documents/news/2014/12/09/del-reato
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Numbers » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:38 am

Here's the tally of crimes that Amanda Knox OFFICIALLY complained of, in her statements and subsequent appeals to the court, relating to her interrogation, including the slaps, according to Mignini and the other prosecutor who brought the case to the Florence judiciary: 4 stand-alone crimes (CP Articles 368, 378, 479, and 611) and 3 aggravating factors to those crimes (CP Articles 61.9, 81.1, and 110).
And the final and definitive verdict of the Florence court of Judge Boninsegna acquitted Amanda Knox of aggravated continuing calunnia against the police and Mignini. In doing so, the verdict was that the facts of the crime of calunnia did not exist for charge (a), and for charge (b), that the facts of the crime of calunnia did not exist and, specifically for the alleged calunnia of Knox against Mignini, the act was not an offense [the judge taking the position that Knox could not have known that Mignini was (supposedly) not responsible, although the sole leader under Italian law of the investigation, for the abuses of the interrogation].

The Boninsegna verdict motivation report states:

"....further corroboration [would need to] be found of the statements of [the police] witnesses, all of them being involved, with varying degrees, in the events - these elements of validation of the statements against the defendant are missing. This deficiency prevents the overcoming of a reasonable doubt about the truth of the accusations against that same defendant, given the available evidentiary material, which served to highlight, with the words used above, how the most prominent part of the investigation in the main case was performed. It was characterized by rushed, as well as inefficient, investigative strategies, which, clearly, generated more mistakes than reliable and technically usable results.

There is not, hence, sufficient evidence that the events did not occur as Knox reported, as regards the police. But it is also plausible, given the dramatic context that has been revealed, that Knox was convinced or had the - reasonable - doubt of being the victim of an unjustly oppressive and abusive machinery, which she described - in a basic and embryonic but effective manner - at the March hearing, as regards the status of the Prosecutor, evidently thought to be the hierarchical instigator and the authority overseeing the police activity. The Prosecutor was believed by her to be, albeit mistakenly, the primary architect and the inspiration behind her state of subjugation and submission. Hence it follows that, as regards this charge, the fact does not constitute an offense, since it is missing the subjective element [of knowing the innocence of the accused person], there being at most the possibility of [the defendant] accepting this eventuality [dolo eventuale], which is incompatible with the crime of calumny.

It can be, therefore, concluded that the chosen investigative practices induced in the defendant the conviction, or the reasonable doubt, that she was being subjected to a planned, oppressive and unfair investigative action - this also takes into account Knox’s definitive acquittal in the main criminal trial because she did not commit the crime of murder - in light of the overall way in which her interrogation was performed.

There is, therefore, an absence of the evidence to place beyond a reasonable doubt that the events did not indeed occur as the girl related and that she was fully aware of the non-involvement of the Prosecutor in the way the investigations concerning her were performed."
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby anonshy » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:14 pm

ScifiTom wrote:To Bill & Number

Thank you Bill & Number even I am still waiting for the nurse to come even she hasn't come yet? He still out even I can't tell if he alive. It like he a zombie, of right now. It not pretty one bit. I am waiting for the nurse and she what she going to do. But we will wait and see, and thanks again Bill & Number!!!


Regardless of our differences, Best wishes for your fathers recovery!

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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby ScifiTom » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:29 pm

To everyone

I would like to take this moment right now that my dad did died last Sunday night at 12:45am and I did in fact left an update on my facebook page and as knowing I will always cheerish my dad even he was a huge fan of his Fighting Irish of Notre Dame and I know it was his favorite team even I would like to thank Sarah, Sans, Anne, Number and Bill all the wishes even he didn't make it, As knowing I did talk about a case, even I know that I got no words of who is that Las Vegas woman. She was sitting near Kirstin Lobato!!!

Thanks again anyway and maybe this weekend I will look through some more information of that Las Vegas woman! If I ever can find anything in her case and talk to you soon!!!
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Annella » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:13 pm

ScifiTom wrote:To everyone

I would like to take this moment right now that my dad did died last Sunday night at 12:45am and I did in fact left an update on my facebook page and as knowing I will always cheerish my dad even he was a huge fan of his Fighting Irish of Notre Dame and I know it was his favorite team even I would like to thank Sarah, Sans, Anne, Number and Bill all the wishes even he didn't make it, As knowing I did talk about a case, even I know that I got no words of who is that Las Vegas woman. She was sitting near Kirstin Lobato!!!

Thanks again anyway and maybe this weekend I will look through some more information of that Las Vegas woman! If I ever can find anything in her case and talk to you soon!!!


Oh Tom. I am so sorry to read this.Carry you in my thoughts right now. :heart:
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby ScifiTom » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:02 pm

To everyone

Hey everyone, I just want to annouce right now that Amanda Knox will now do a new show on Viceland channel even it is called Vice and it coming this Spring of 2018 and the name of the show is called: The Scarlett Letter of Amanda Knox and she is going to interview it on that channel and as well on Facebook!!!

http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/aman ... ies-148925

She deleted me off on facebook even she not a fan of me. Of why I go with criminal law into reading a novel. I do take action even we got to care for the men too into the innocent project as well. Let not hurt the woman too. But I want it to be good anyway. I would like to see Amanda Knox interview a case of innocent into Kirstin Lobato case and more soon enough and talk to you soon everyone!!!
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Numbers » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:28 am

There have been questions about the ECHR, CoM, and CoE procedures that are engaged if a member state of the CoE does not follow a final judgment of the ECHR and does not positively respond to the supervisory role of the CoM in the execution of the ECHR judgment.

The relevance is that if and when the ECHR issues a final judgment against Italy, finding a violation of Article 6, in the case of Knox v. Italy, Italy, a founding member of the CoE, under its solemn treaty obligations and Italian law (Constitutional Court judgment no. 113 of 2011) will be required to allow review of a request for a revision trial for Knox's conviction of calunnia against Lumumba. The question arises: what happens if Italy does not follow through on its treaty obligations and its own law?

A case of this type - where a state does not follow through on its solemn treaty obligation and apparently refuses to comply with a final ECHR judgment - has just been announced by the ECHR. A case before the ECHR against the CoE member state, Azerbaijan, has been launched by the CoM alleging that Azerbaijan has violated Article 46.4 of the Convention. This article requires that the member states follow the final judgments of the ECHR. The procedures and potential judgment in this case, being relatively new, will set some precedents.

Here is the text of the ECHR press release:

"New infringement procedure used for first time over 2014 judgment against
Azerbaijan on opposition politician Mammadov

The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) is to examine whether Azerbaijan has refused to abide by the ECHR’s judgment in the case of imprisoned opposition politician Ilgar Mammadov, the first use of a new infringement procedure.

The procedure was introduced into the European Convention on Human Rights in 2010 and allows the Committee of Ministers, which has the responsibility under the Convention for supervising the execution of the Court’s judgments, to refer a question to the ECHR about whether a country has refused to abide by a final judgment.

The Committee decided on 5 December 2017 to launch the proceedings against Azerbaijan owing to the authorities’ persistent refusal to ensure Mr Mammadov’s unconditional release following the ECHR’s 2014 finding of multiple violations of his rights. The ECHR received the formal request from the Committee on 11 December.

The procedure will be before the ECHR’s Grand Chamber.

Mr Mammadov, born in 1970, was arrested and placed in detention in 2013 following protests in the town of Ismayilli. He is currently serving a seven-year prison sentence following his conviction in 2014 of mass disorder and violence against public officials.

The ECHR found in 2014 that Mr Mammadov had been arrested and detained without any evidence to reasonably suspect him of having committed a criminal offence and concluding that the actual purpose of his detention had been to silence or punish him for criticising the Government. It found violations of Article 5 §§ 1 and 4 (right to liberty and security), Article 6 § 2 (right to the presumption of innocence), and Article 18 (limitation on use of restrictions on rights) of the European Convention.

The Committee of Ministers has launched the infringement proceedings under paragraph 4 of Article 46 (binding force and enforcement of judgments) of the Convention. The Article allows the Committee to refer a question to the ECHR as to whether a country has failed to abide by an ECHR judgment. The Committee first has to serve formal notice on the country concerned, which it did in this case in October, and then adopt a referral decision by a two-thirds majority.

The ECHR will consider the question as a Grand Chamber, its highest judicial formation. The Committee of Ministers and the parties concerned will be able to submit written comments in accordance with a deadline set by the President of the Grand Chamber. The Grand Chamber might also decide to hold a hearing.

If the Grand Chamber finds a violation because Azerbaijan has failed to abide by the ECHR’s judgment of 2014 in the case, it will refer the case back to the Committee of Ministers for consideration of the measures to be taken. A finding of no violation also leads to the case being referred back to the Committee of Ministers, which then closes its examination."
_____
Abbreviations: ECHR = European Court of Human Rights; CoM = Committee of Ministers, aka the Committee; CoE = Council of Europe; the Convention, aka the European Convention = the European Convention on Human Rights, aka most formally as The Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms.
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Numbers » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:58 pm

Numbers wrote:There have been questions about the ECHR, CoM, and CoE procedures that are engaged if a member state of the CoE does not follow a final judgment of the ECHR and does not positively respond to the supervisory role of the CoM in the execution of the ECHR judgment.

The relevance is that if and when the ECHR issues a final judgment against Italy, finding a violation of Article 6, in the case of Knox v. Italy, Italy, a founding member of the CoE, under its solemn treaty obligations and Italian law (Constitutional Court judgment no. 113 of 2011) will be required to allow review of a request for a revision trial for Knox's conviction of calunnia against Lumumba. The question arises: what happens if Italy does not follow through on its treaty obligations and its own law?

A case of this type - where a state does not follow through on its solemn treaty obligation and apparently refuses to comply with a final ECHR judgment - has just been announced by the ECHR. A case before the ECHR against the CoE member state, Azerbaijan, has been launched by the CoM alleging that Azerbaijan has violated Article 46.4 of the Convention. This article requires that the member states follow the final judgments of the ECHR. The procedures and potential judgment in this case, being relatively new, will set some precedents.
....
_____
Abbreviations: ECHR = European Court of Human Rights; CoM = Committee of Ministers, aka the Committee; CoE = Council of Europe; the Convention, aka the European Convention = the European Convention on Human Rights, aka most formally as The Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms.


Based on the above, the history of compliance by CoE states with ECHR judgments, and Italian law, here is some additional analysis of how Italy may respond to an ECHR judgment against it in the case of Knox v. Italy.

First, under the Italian Constitution, Italy is absolutely required to follow international law. The CoE with its organs, the ECHR and CoM, is an international legal organization whose rulings Italy is required to follow according to a treaty Italy has signed (and indeed, helped originate) and the Italian Constitution itself, as stated in that Constitution's Article 10.

"Art. 10
The Italian legal system conforms to the generally recognised principles of
international law.

The legal status of foreigners is regulated by law in conformity with
international provisions and treaties. ...."

Furthermore, the Italian Constitutional Court, in its judgment No. 113 of 2011, requires that any final judgment of the ECHR that requires criminal proceedings to be reopened must be recognized as valid grounds for considering a request for a revision trial.

However, Italy has been one of the states of the CoE that has finally closed cases from the ECHR that are under the supervision of the CoM relatively slowly, so that the percentage of cases closed currently compared to the total number of cases is relatively low.

In fact, Italy has been presented with 4120 such ECHR cases under CoM supervision, and only 2004 have been closed to date, that is, 48.6% are closed. No CoE state has had more cases under CoM supervision presented to it. Of the 47 CoE states, Italy is the 41st worst in terms of cases finally closed.
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby ScifiTom » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:47 am

Annella wrote:
ScifiTom wrote:To everyone

I would like to take this moment right now that my dad did died last Sunday night at 12:45am and I did in fact left an update on my facebook page and as knowing I will always cheerish my dad even he was a huge fan of his Fighting Irish of Notre Dame and I know it was his favorite team even I would like to thank Sarah, Sans, Anne, Number and Bill all the wishes even he didn't make it, As knowing I did talk about a case, even I know that I got no words of who is that Las Vegas woman. She was sitting near Kirstin Lobato!!!

Thanks again anyway and maybe this weekend I will look through some more information of that Las Vegas woman! If I ever can find anything in her case and talk to you soon!!!


Oh Tom. I am so sorry to read this.Carry you in my thoughts right now. :heart:


To Anne

Thanks Anne, even this Friday we are going to open Christmas Present even celebrate it early and leave early as well, even we are going through hard times. I just want nothing with 3 trolls and why? Because I am still ignoring them, even my dad means a lot to me even I just not going to buy them, one bit. I had move on and it done, even I want to focus, through the innocent project and that what count, for me and for my family as well!!

2nd I go out of my way through cases of criminal law and yes Amanda Knox was my first case, even after she got free. I wanted to do more and I helped Kirstin Lobato, even I helped cases well like, Dusty Turner, Michael Skakel or let say: Mystery Woman of Robert Wagner even people don't like me, of why I support a Hollywood actor who might be wrongful convicted of murdering Natalie Wood. I just an't going to buy it. Some might think I am sick!!!

3rd and finally am I a monster? I don't know! I don't have the answer of crime wave even sure the trolls love to go to say sorry even one did and I was shock and I didn't want it, even I take thing serious into criminal law. I know people do the bad of bad or the sex of sex and it bother them, even that was the whole case of Amanda Knox even it was sex murder crimes and when that goes wrong. It just wrong for me, into any part of ways!!!

4th What to finish or what do I want of right now is focus on the innocent even let face it, I still support Scott Peterson and I care less what anyone said: Don't like me. Sue me right now in a court of law. I take action even sure I wanted to be the most hated man. Let just say Matt Lauer even sure he was the most hated man in America. But I support the innocent into murder crimes even I <Cheers> for it, and I tell the world to sue me. I know the trolls are going to be like this :curse: right now at me. I focus on the innocent and it who I am even if it had to do with sex and that is that and sorry Anne, it just me even I support the man to care. I know people are going to act like this to me ::doh:: :beg: :jaw-dropping: !!!

5th the love of my Anne Hathaway even sure everyone want to have sex with her, even me myself. Oh OMG it a shocker. Look I am not trying to scary people even it sound that way. Or why I am him of being mean and green!!!

https://view.yahoo.com/show/the-incredi ... ing-angels

This is why I love this episode so much even it my favorite episode of all time into the Incredible Hulk style and you should watch it Anne, and it what I enjoy so much and one more thing. Don't make me angry? You wouldn't like me when I am angry!!!






Image


Thanks again and I will be back before I leave on 12/23/17-12/27/17. If you don't respond anyway. Then Merry Christmas Anne!!!
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Numbers » Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:31 am

Among the constant repetitions of the guilters include arguments that police everywhere, including in Perugia and Italy, never violate the law and never have reasons to fabricate evidence against innocent persons. Therefore, the guilters claim that the Italian police would have no reason to coerce Knox to make false statements, and thus would have not have done so.

Here's an excerpt from an article summarizing a case from the US state of Illinois that invalidates the premises of the guilters about the unwavering universal honesty of the police.

"In his 10-page ruling, [U.S. Federal District Judge Ronald A.] Guzman said the plaintiffs [three men from Illinois who claimed their Constitutional rights were violated by unlawful arrests by local police for a crime that had not occurred] “set out facts sufficient to allege” that the massive manhunt “for [Fox Lake, Illinois Police Lieutenant Charles Joseph] Gliniewicz’s nonexistent killers” resulted in part from the village’s “failure to supervise or discipline” the lieutenant before his death.

Guzman noted that the men who filed the complaint provided “specific accounts of incidents in which the village failed to investigate or discipline [police] officers for misconduct, even upon complaints from fellow employees.”

The plaintiffs’ claims suggest “the unaddressed misconduct” reached the highest levels of the department and was so pervasive that it made officers believe misconduct would go unpunished “or even be rewarded,” Guzman wrote. ...

[The three plaintiffs claimed to have been unlawfully arrested on suspicion of murdering Gliniewicz.] In truth, Gliniewicz, 52, whose 30-year career was marked by drunken indiscretions, claims of sexual misconduct, threatening behavior and suspensions, shot himself that September morning in a remote, marshy area of Fox Lake.

A financial review of his management of a youth police training program was bearing down on him. The review later showed that Gliniewicz had taken thousands of dollars from the Explorers youth group and used the money for personal travel, loans, cash and adult websites."

Source: http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/c ... story.html
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Numbers » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:50 pm

A correction for some misinformation I inadvertently propagated.

I had believed, based on some secondary source, that the Italian Supreme Court of Cassation, the CSC, was going to issue a decision by the end of November on Rudy Guede's appeal of the rejection of his request for a revision trial by the Florence Appeal Court.

However, based on information supplied by Methos in a post on ISF, there was never a certain date published for the CSC decision on Guede's appeal on rejection of the revision. According to Methos, there was an error in a German article translating an Italian article that apparently was propagated online.

Probably the CSC will publish a decision in 2018.

Methos referenced this Italian media article dated November 17, 2016 as the possible source of confusion on the dates:

http://www.umbria24.it/cronaca/omicidio ... cesso-rudy

The most recent Italian news article found by Methos, as posted on ISF, was this one from February 18, 2017:

http://www.umbria24.it/cronaca/omicidio ... io-perugia

The first paragraph of the Feb. 18 article states:

"Rudy Guede tenta l’ultima carta, quella della Cassazione. Gli avvocati che lo difendono infatti, ovvero Tommaso Pietrocarlo e Monica Grossi, hanno deciso di presentare un ricorso alla suprema corte dopo che, il 10 gennaio scorso, la Corte d’Appello di Firenze ha dichiarato inammissibile la loro richiesta di revisione del processo del ragazzo, unico condannato in via definitiva per l’omicidio della studentessa inglese Meredith Kercher, avvenuto a Perugia il primo novembre 2007. La notizia è stata riportata sabato da La Nazione. In Cassazione i giudici potrebbero annullare con rinvio o confermare la decisione adottata dalla corte di Firenze, ma la data dell’udienza non è ancora stata fissata. Alla base della richiesta di revisione del processo ci sarebbe, secondo i legali dell’ivoriano, un contrasto di giudicati: cioè tra la sua sentenza definitiva di condanna e quella con cui Amanda Knox e Raffaele Sollecito sono stati definitivamente assolti dalla Cassazione. A questa istanza si era opposta la procura generale di Firenze e anche l’avvocato Francesco Maresca, che rappresenta la famiglia Kercher."

Here's a Google translation, with my help:

"Rudy Guede tries the last card, that of the Supreme Court. The lawyers who defend him in fact, namely Tommaso Pietrocarlo and Monica Grossi, have decided to appeal to the supreme court after, on January 10th, the Court of Appeal of Florence declared inadmissible their request to review the trial of the boy , the only one definitively convicted for the murder of the English student Meredith Kercher, which took place in Perugia on 1 November 2007. The news was reported Saturday by La Nazione. In the Supreme Court the judges could cancel by referring [the case back to an appeal court for reconsideration] or confirming the decision taken by the court of Florence, but the date of the hearing has not yet been fixed. At the basis of the request for a review of the trial there would be, according to the Ivorian's lawyers, a contrast of court judgments: that is, between his final sentence of conviction and that with which Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were definitively acquitted by the Supreme Court. The public prosecutor of Florence and the lawyer Francesco Maresca, representing the Kercher family, opposed this request."
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Bruce Fischer » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:56 pm

ScifiTom wrote:To everyone

I would like to take this moment right now that my dad did died last Sunday night at 12:45am and I did in fact left an update on my facebook page and as knowing I will always cheerish my dad even he was a huge fan of his Fighting Irish of Notre Dame and I know it was his favorite team even I would like to thank Sarah, Sans, Anne, Number and Bill all the wishes even he didn't make it, As knowing I did talk about a case, even I know that I got no words of who is that Las Vegas woman. She was sitting near Kirstin Lobato!!!

Thanks again anyway and maybe this weekend I will look through some more information of that Las Vegas woman! If I ever can find anything in her case and talk to you soon!!!


Tom,

I am sorry for your loss. December is a crazy month for me and I have not been following the board as I should. I am sorry I didn't respond sooner. You are a great guy and I have no doubt you made your dad very proud. You will cherish the memories.
"This could happen to any one of you. If you don't believe it could happen, you are either misinformed or in a state of deep denial" -- Debra Milke
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby ScifiTom » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:23 pm

Bruce Fischer wrote:
ScifiTom wrote:To everyone

I would like to take this moment right now that my dad did died last Sunday night at 12:45am and I did in fact left an update on my facebook page and as knowing I will always cheerish my dad even he was a huge fan of his Fighting Irish of Notre Dame and I know it was his favorite team even I would like to thank Sarah, Sans, Anne, Number and Bill all the wishes even he didn't make it, As knowing I did talk about a case, even I know that I got no words of who is that Las Vegas woman. She was sitting near Kirstin Lobato!!!

Thanks again anyway and maybe this weekend I will look through some more information of that Las Vegas woman! If I ever can find anything in her case and talk to you soon!!!


Tom,

I am sorry for your loss. December is a crazy month for me and I have not been following the board as I should. I am sorry I didn't respond sooner. You are a great guy and I have no doubt you made your dad very proud. You will cherish the memories.


To Bruce

Thanks Bruce even right now that last Christmas eve I got back to Worcester Ma and on this Saturday I am going to go back to Norfolk VA. Then in March 2018 or April 2018 I will be back again in Worcester until summer of 2018 I will official will be living in Norfolk VA even my sister Mags is staying there. We got 2 houses of Worcester MA to Norfolk VA so it backward and forwards of going places. So it is going to be a zoo until I will stay in Worcester MA until it all done and good, and who knows even a lot of things had change. But anyway I do want to talk about a case that truly might be wrongful convicted even no one know her name?

Gosh what is her name? Oh anyway I do have the picture and when I am ready, even I will make a promise to work on cases of wrongful convicted cases even right now, if I am sorry of confusing you of my grammar anyway. Here is the picture of this unknown woman who was praying the same day and same time while she was sitting near Kirstin Lobato and no one know her name or might not know anything about the case even this is a Las Vegas case and she seem innocent. But here the picture!!!

Image

I ask Michelle Ravell even she doesn't know who she is, even I haven't contact any Las Vegas criminal lawyers. I was supose to contact David or someone must know. She was praying for her innocent even it sound that way, I am wondering of what she charge with of right now!!!

Is there any good lawyers that I can contact in Las Vegas of another case. I know for sure Kirstin Lobato is going to win and that woman who wearing the DCDC or CCDC sweat pants is totally innocent!!!

But to cut a long story short! I will talk to you soon when I get back to Norfolk VA. I am going to be extremly busy on tomorrow and Saturday even I will return Sunday anyway and talk to you soon Bruce!!!
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Annella » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:48 pm

From last year.....a promotion for one of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito's acquitting judges. :D This will NOT go down well with those who believe he was ' bent'. :winks:

CSM APPOINTS JUDGE OF REGGIO CALABRIA PAOLO BRUNO AS PRESIDENT OF THE CHAMBER OF CASSATION
3.14pm - April 20th 2016 CITTA , Reggio Calabria

By resolution passed unanimously yesterday, the Superior Council of Magistracy appointed the judge of Reggio Calabria Paolo Bruno as President of the Chamber of Cassation.
This is a prestigious executive position, which marks an important stage in a bright and rewarding career.

After entering the Magistrature at the age of twenty-five, President Bruno began his judicial activity at the Court of Vibo Valentia to move, after a few years, to the Court and then to the Court of Appeal of Reggio Calabria, standing out for preparation and professionalism. , both in the civil and criminal sectors.
For three years he presided over the Corte d'assise reggina, defining three processes of national importance: the "Cosa Nostra" trial for the murder of the magistrate Nino Scopelliti; two trials against Calabrian crime, for the murders of the President of the Ferrovie dello Stato Vico Ligato and the baron Antonino Cordopatri.

Winner of a competition for titles and processional merits, in 1998 Dr. Bruno has moved to Rome, at the Office of the Massimario (study office) of the Court of Cassation. Appointed director, he was assigned to the Fifth Criminal Section where he was involved, as a member of the judging panel or speaker, some of the most important trials of Italian judicial history: the G8 of Genoa, the massacre of Piazza della Loggia of Brescia, countless processes of organized crime and terrorism; the murders of Marta Russo, Marco Biagi, Merdith Kercher and Chiara Poggi.
He was the author of judgments of great importance, such as the sentence for the murder of prof. Marco Biagi by the Red Brigades; the sentence against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, accused of the murder of Meredith Kercher; several rulings on corporate and bankruptcy matters, most recently on the subject of "false valuation".

Since 2013, it is part of the United Penal Sections, the highest jurisdictional body of the Supreme Court, called to rule on the jurisprudential contrasts between the different sections and on legal issues of particular importance.

Since 1986 he has also been a member of the tax commission, now president of the section of the provincial commission of Rome.



Link to English translation page... http://goo.gl/tXfmNc
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Annella » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:01 pm

I am sure most of you know but for those who dont.....this from Doug Preston at his public facebook page:

" The movie being made of my book, THE MONSTER OF FLORENCE, is due to start shooting in Italy this summer. I should have news for you soon on who will star in it.
--Doug"
'The Italian concept of judicial truth does not trouble itself with reality; it controls the narrative by controlling the past"
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Bill Williams » Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:49 am

Oy vey. Peter Q is writing that it is a fact that Mignini won the defamation lawsuit against Sollectico and Gumbel. This, along with PQ's claim that the 2015 Supreme Court acquittal was both illegal and appealable is all one needs to know about his powers of delusion.

Also, that one should view a YouTube video of Mignini and Comodi laying out the case. We should also let Charles Dawson and Arthur Smith Woodward teach us paleoanthropology.
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby erasmus44 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:08 pm

Annella wrote:I am sure most of you know but for those who dont.....this from Doug Preston at his public facebook page:

" The movie being made of my book, THE MONSTER OF FLORENCE, is due to start shooting in Italy this summer. I should have news for you soon on who will star in it.
--Doug"



I really really hope that they cast Lewis Black as Mignini.
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby erasmus44 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:09 pm

Bill Williams wrote:Oy vey. Peter Q is writing that it is a fact that Mignini won the defamation lawsuit against Sollectico and Gumbel. This, along with PQ's claim that the 2015 Supreme Court acquittal was both illegal and appealable is all one needs to know about his powers of delusion.

Also, that one should view a YouTube video of Mignini and Comodi laying out the case. We should also let Charles Dawson and Arthur Smith Woodward teach us paleoanthropology.



PQ is getting increasingly batshit crazy.
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby ScifiTom » Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:23 pm

Annella wrote:I am sure most of you know but for those who dont.....this from Doug Preston at his public facebook page:

" The movie being made of my book, THE MONSTER OF FLORENCE, is due to start shooting in Italy this summer. I should have news for you soon on who will star in it.
--Doug"


To Anne

Thanks Anne, even they got to put this movie in Theater 12/7/18 so that it can hit to the Oscars.org even let put Marry Poppins vs The Monster of Florence into the 91st Oscars Academy Awards and let Hugh Jackman & Anne Hathaway to host the 91st academy awards even they both great and it can be a dancing twist style!!!

So what you say Anne and talk to you soon Anne!!!
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Annella » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:30 pm

Annella wrote:I am sure most of you know but for those who dont.....this from Doug Preston at his public facebook page:

" The movie being made of my book, THE MONSTER OF FLORENCE, is due to start shooting in Italy this summer. I should have news for you soon on who will star in it.
--Doug"


Update from Preston!

Doug Preston has just updated his page with this news....

Ai miei cari amici italiani -- Il film del mostro di Firenze, basato sul libro che Mario Spezi e io abbiamo scritto, inizierà girare questa estate. Il regista è Nikolaj Arcel, lo studio è StudioCanal di Francia, e il produttore del film è David Heyman, uno dei più grandi produttori del film nel mondo (Harry Potter, Gravity, I Am Legend, Paddington). Infine, la grande e coraggiosa lotta di Mario Spezi per scoprire la verità del Mostro sarà ricordata come si deve.

To my dear Italian friends -- the film of the monster of Florence, based on the book that mario spezi and I wrote, will begin this summer. The Director is Nikolai Arcel, the studio is studiocanal of France, and the producer of the film is David Heyman, one of the largest producers of the film in the world (Harry Potter, gravity, I am legend, Paddington). Finally, the great and brave struggle of Mario Spezi to discover the truth of the monster will be remembered as it should.
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Bruce Fischer » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:53 pm

This was pointed out recently on Facebook. I think it's humorous. Peter Quennell's group is all but dead, as it should be. But there are a few people trying to make it look like the effort is still going strong. In order to do that, the few remaining guilters need to use multiple screen names to make it look like they have more people involved. Here we see James Raper forgetting that he is signed in as "The Machine" when he responds to a comment.

Image

Oops! Look who wrote the article.

Image

We have always known that TJMK is a complete fraud. It is amazing that the 3 or 4 people who are left are trying so hard to pretend to matter. It is honestly sad. I almost feel bad for them. But then I stop and remember how dedicated they were in their attempt to destroy innocent people, and then I lose all sympathy.
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Numbers » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:51 pm

Bruce Fischer wrote:This was pointed out recently on Facebook. I think it's humorous. Peter Quennell's group is all but dead, as it should be. But there are a few people trying to make it look like the effort is still going strong. In order to do that, the few remaining guilters need to use multiple screen names to make it look like they have more people involved. Here we see James Raper forgetting that he is signed in as "The Machine" when he responds to a comment.

Image

Oops! Look who wrote the article.

Image

We have always known that TJMK is a complete fraud. It is amazing that the 3 or 4 people who are left are trying so hard to pretend to matter. It is honestly sad. I almost feel bad for them. But then I stop and remember how dedicated they were in their attempt to destroy innocent people, and then I lose all sympathy.


Bruce, thanks for pointing out this element of the guilters' hoaxes. The psychologically interesting issue, not readily resolved, is how many of the guilters are hoaxers and how many are seriously delusional - and how many are both.
Expert witness testimony must be the product of reliable principles and methods. {Paraphrase of Fed. Rules of Evidence 702c}
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Zrausch » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:58 pm

Also the article is full of overt lies. The knife was collected because it was thought compatible with the imprint (lie). 36B was not tested for blood (lie). There were negative controls (lie). If you have to lie so blatantly to make your point who are you trying to convince 10+ years later?
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Bill Williams » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:45 pm

Zrausch wrote:Also the article is full of overt lies. The knife was collected because it was thought compatible with the imprint (lie). 36B was not tested for blood (lie). There were negative controls (lie). If you have to lie so blatantly to make your point who are you trying to convince 10+ years later?


The following is Inspector Finzi's testimony as to how the knife was found, and why he chose that one:

PRESIDENT : – the photo is showed to the witness. What photo is it?
PR – exhibit 36.
PRESIDENT – exhibit 36, and the witness states…
W – yes, this is the knife.
PRESIDENT – a big knife
W – a big knife, 31 cm in length, blade 17 cm, haft 14 cm. The haft is dark.
PR – were there other knives in the kitchen?
W – yes, but I took this knife on the basis of the previous breefing, and of detective intuition. I took it and
I showed it immediately to Dr Chiacchiera. I said, Dr Chiacchiera, I think this knife deserves to be
collected. And Dr Chiacchiera…
PR – you mean, the knife could be linked to the crime
W – it could be linked because in my opinion the blade might be compatible with the wounds; I never saw
the wounds but I knew they were serious.

PR – In a word, it was an interesting knife.
W – an interesting knife, yes.
PR – Were there other knives in the kitchen?
W – yes, they were, some smaller, some bigger than it, now I don’t remember their exact number and
shape.
PR – did you take other knives?
W – From the kitchen ? No, we didn’t. As far as I remember, we took another knife in Sollecito’s
bedroom, but it was much smaller than that one, please wait a second…yes exactly: found in the bedroom,
at the entrance of the bedroom we found a knife 18 cm in length blade 8 cm, in the bedroom.
PR – So, in the kitchen you decided to pick up this knife a and only this knife, you think it convenient to
do so.
W – yes, I did it convenient to take this knife.
PR – a decision of possible interest in the investigations
W – exactly
PR – And Dr Chiacchiera, what said to you? You took the knife with your gloves, of course.
W – I took it with gloves, I …
PR – and the gloves had not…
W – Dr. Chiacchiera was there, three meters distant.
PR – and the knife, was it the first thing you touched or had you touched other things?
W – Doctor, as I said few minutes ago, I firstly opened the drawer, then I choose the first knife; it was
upon the remainder of cutlery.
PR – so, this knife is the first thing you took with your new gloves.
W – yes, it is. I showed it to Dr Chiacchiera and I said “ To me, we should take this knife because my
detective intuition suggests …”


Either James Raper/The Machine is unfamiliar with this case or he's a liar.
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby erasmus44 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:04 pm

They trot out the same BS over and over again. Why would anyone listen to Raper rather than, for example, Peter Gill on the DNA issue, anyhow???
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby erasmus44 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:17 pm

What's really weird about TJMK is the constant upbeat "we are winning big time" tone, the notion that "success is just around the corner" and the self-congratulatory attaboys which resound loudly in the echo chamber of the demented. The "success is just around the corner" theme echoes Herbert Hoover in 1930-32 ("prosperity is just around the corner"). The only other parallel I can think of was described to me by a few of my Japanese clients. They described things in Japan in the summer of 1945 - the government was confidently predicting victory and describing the bombing of Japan as something not to be concerned about because it had been "factored in" when the decision was made to go to war. Many Japanese assumed that New York and Chicago were being hit much much harder than Tokyo and Hiroshima. It actually made it hard to surrender and only the active intervention of the Emperor made the surrender feasible.
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Zrausch » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:07 am

It's a bit of a self selecting crowd at this point I guess, since only the delusional would be sticking around now. Those that saw it was over (the majority) are long gone. Stilicho for example had something like 15,000 posts around the internet on this case, after the acquittal he never made another post, not even a goodbye to his guilter crew.
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby ScifiTom » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:11 am

Bruce Fischer wrote:This was pointed out recently on Facebook. I think it's humorous. Peter Quennell's group is all but dead, as it should be. But there are a few people trying to make it look like the effort is still going strong. In order to do that, the few remaining guilters need to use multiple screen names to make it look like they have more people involved. Here we see James Raper forgetting that he is signed in as "The Machine" when he responds to a comment.

Image

Oops! Look who wrote the article.

Image

We have always known that TJMK is a complete fraud. It is amazing that the 3 or 4 people who are left are trying so hard to pretend to matter. It is honestly sad. I almost feel bad for them. But then I stop and remember how dedicated they were in their attempt to destroy innocent people, and then I lose all sympathy.


To Bruce

Thanks Bruce for the information and what? Who? How & Where? Is this all coming too of right now, even yes James Rapper wrote this even isn't he trying to be Harry Rag again, even now it is confirmed that James is the real Harry Rag even he must be hiding. Oh what the heck is going on here. The guy is a nut ball even he wrote something well like the DNA!!! He believe the Knife is a perfect match. James doesn't get it that if you read Raffaele Sollecito book it explain how they use low evidence of saying: Hey this knife seem good and pick the weapon into his room, that something not to good even testing DNA is the key point and let face it. When James thinks there going to test the knife. It comes negative and it was a no match. James are you really losing your mind my friend, even everything was to low and mix tan evidence was into the crime scene even it was sloppy Joe into the crime scene and they ruin it, even they had there killer all along and it was true, damn true that Rudy Guede was the killer all along unless there was another person. The whole point to me is 2 men came in and rob the condo and one took a bathroom crap and the 2nd did the killed while poor Rudy cover the blood, and then run away!!!

Amanda show up and she sees the door wide open and had no clue why? Is it odd when someone see a door wide open. Then she take a shower even and saw more into the potty and it was sicken to death, even everything was gross. Nothing was stolen, even yes it was stagged. But there nothing that point to her or Raffaele period!!!

A) Rudy killed her
B) Is Rudy innocent
C) Will we ever know the truth even he was free 1 year ago

The world will never know to seem to know, even the case is over and it was a travisty mess and no matter how I am going to say it. I just an't going to buy it, even sure no one going to understand me of what I say or how I say it. Some how Rudy got the guilt of being a run away into a theme song called: Run, Run Away!!!

Oh by the way Bruce! Peter said this to you, and I will put it into quote of what he said to you anyway and enjoy reading this!!!

Peter Wrote: So “Bruce Fisher of New York” in the low-rent outer suburbs of Chicago obsesses over who everyone is? Still stalking as their TItanic goes down?


Is Peter telling us that Bruce grow up in New York while he staying in the Suburbs of Chicago, even he thinks the stalking is like a Titanic sunk. I think Peter is not knowing what to become of unknown even the Titanic sunk in April 14, 1912 even now this is January 9, 2018 even almost 106 years ago. Poor Peter he thinks the Titanic sunk even doesn't he realize that more people are being innocent and Bruce site is getting better even your site is not gong so well!!!
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby ScifiTom » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:20 am

To everyone

Hey everyone, about the site of TJMK, True Justice of Meredith Kercher is so weak even they still might hang on or will they hang on even not just 1 person walk free last January 2018 another person just walk free!!!

First was Kirstin Lobato who main stain her innocent and she wasted 16 years of prison and now she a free woman of being wrongful convicted and now it is official that Cliven Bundy is now being free to walk the street even the Judge dismiss the charges and now he too a free man as well!!!

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/01/08/ ... er-bunchy/

You know poor Peter is not going to like of what he is hearing right now. The innocent is being free even I bet he not having his day through media news even only 2 got free, more to come soon enough!!!
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Numbers » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:55 am

erasmus44 wrote:What's really weird about TJMK is the constant upbeat "we are winning big time" tone, the notion that "success is just around the corner" and the self-congratulatory attaboys which resound loudly in the echo chamber of the demented. The "success is just around the corner" theme echoes Herbert Hoover in 1930-32 ("prosperity is just around the corner"). The only other parallel I can think of was described to me by a few of my Japanese clients. They described things in Japan in the summer of 1945 - the government was confidently predicting victory and describing the bombing of Japan as something not to be concerned about because it had been "factored in" when the decision was made to go to war. Many Japanese assumed that New York and Chicago were being hit much much harder than Tokyo and Hiroshima. It actually made it hard to surrender and only the active intervention of the Emperor made the surrender feasible.


You point out a very real kind of bias that affects those - perhaps even some who are otherwise rational - who so desperately want something to be true that they interpret any possibly relevant information, even objectively contradictory evidence, to support their assumptions or beliefs. This is a pattern of interpretation practiced by conspiracy theorists [1]. Sometimes this pattern of interpretation is called confirmation bias [2], but a recent study suggests a better term in some cases may be "desirability bias" [3] [4].

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

"According to the political scientist Michael Barkun, conspiracy theories rely on the view that the universe is governed by design, and embody three principles: nothing happens by accident, nothing is as it seems, and everything is connected. Another common feature is that conspiracy theories evolve to incorporate whatever evidence exists against them, so that they become, as Barkun writes, a closed system that is unfalsifiable, and therefore "a matter of faith rather than proof"."

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

"Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias, is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses. It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way."

3. https://theness.com/neurologicablog/ind ... lity-bias/

In a recent study, psychologists "defined confirmation bias as a bias toward a belief we already hold, while desirability bias is a bias toward a belief we want to be true."

The paper referenced in Source 3 [4] defines the difference rather subtly:

4. document file (docx) link:
https://pure.royalholloway.ac.uk/portal ... 4da9611d66).html

"Two prominent theories offer similar yet distinct predictions regarding when and how people incorporate new information into their beliefs. One theory contends that individuals assign greater weight to information that is desirable versus undesirable—i.e., a desirability bias. This bias is reported to underlie an asymmetry whereby people update their prior beliefs to incorporate new and desirable information more than new but undesirable information (Sharot & Garrett, 2016). The other theory, confirmation bias, contends that people preferentially search for, evaluate and incorporate new information that confirms their prior beliefs (Nickerson, 1998). This bias is reported to underlie an asymmetry whereby people update their prior beliefs to incorporate new and confirming information more than new but disconfirming information—even if they receive a balanced set of both types of information (Lord et al., 1979; Taber & Lodge, 2006; Taber et al., 2009)."
Expert witness testimony must be the product of reliable principles and methods. {Paraphrase of Fed. Rules of Evidence 702c}
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Bruce Fischer » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:16 pm

erasmus44 wrote:They trot out the same BS over and over again. Why would anyone listen to Raper rather than, for example, Peter Gill on the DNA issue, anyhow???


No one is listening to the guilters anymore. 3 or 4 of them sit on TJMK talking to themselves. I only posted the "oops" above because I saw it on Facebook and thought it was funny.

Quennell spouted out a few things from what I see on Tom's post. I like his low rent suburbs of Chicago comment. I wish he was right! Our kids cost us a fortune. Haha. Quennell is lonely. I highly doubt he wants​ to see me start writing about him again. His life is embarrassing. Good thing I have other things to do or I might find myself having some fun with that.

Anyway. That's all I have to say about the Quennell group. They aren't worth any more of our time. At least they provide a good laugh occasionally.
"This could happen to any one of you. If you don't believe it could happen, you are either misinformed or in a state of deep denial" -- Debra Milke
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Bruce Fischer » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:20 pm

Zrausch wrote:It's a bit of a self selecting crowd at this point I guess, since only the delusional would be sticking around now. Those that saw it was over (the majority) are long gone. Stilicho for example had something like 15,000 posts around the internet on this case, after the acquittal he never made another post, not even a goodbye to his guilter crew.


It was nice to see the majority walk away. They either realized they were wrong or they accepted the final ruling. Either way, it's over. I'm happy about that.
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Annella » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:18 pm

This is an interesting PDF for those interested in DNA issues. I learnt much reading here!

Published November 2017

Forensic DNA Analysis
A Primer for Courts.

https://royalsociety.org/~/media/about- ... courts.pdf
'The Italian concept of judicial truth does not trouble itself with reality; it controls the narrative by controlling the past"
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Bill Williams » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:20 am

Bruce Fischer wrote:
Zrausch wrote:It's a bit of a self selecting crowd at this point I guess, since only the delusional would be sticking around now. Those that saw it was over (the majority) are long gone. Stilicho for example had something like 15,000 posts around the internet on this case, after the acquittal he never made another post, not even a goodbye to his guilter crew.


It was nice to see the majority walk away. They either realized they were wrong or they accepted the final ruling. Either way, it's over. I'm happy about that.

Stilicho had been around long before I got here, but in the time I saw him post he rarely added anything to the debate. He posted ad hominems against those who he regarded as, "defending your precious murderer," or stuff like that. When Nencini reconvicted he gloated a bit on JREF/ISF, predicting doom and gloom, but disappeared after the March 2015 exonerations.

Let's face it though. Most have disappeared since then anyway. JREF posting (and lurker viewing) went down 88% after March 2015, and the convo on JREF would have disappeared all together if not for Vixen's guilter factoids, and people responding to her me included.

What's been discovered recently (due to sloppy management of sock puppet accounts) is that there are fewer guilters actively posting these days than anyone thought. Anyway, people are getting on with their lives - athough no one has a right to pry, one wishes that the Kercher's themselves have come to some peace through this ordeal, an unimaginable one when you think of it. Ironically Andrea Vogt said it best back in 2015 after the acquittals, when she outed Monday-morning guilter detectives - who she cited as only continuing the Kercher's pain by claiming that the legal odyssey had not been definitively closed.
    “The only way I can pay back for what fate and society have handed me is to try, in minor totally useless ways, to make an angry sound against injustice.”
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby RoseMontague » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:26 am

Bill Williams wrote:
Bruce Fischer wrote:
Zrausch wrote:It's a bit of a self selecting crowd at this point I guess, since only the delusional would be sticking around now. Those that saw it was over (the majority) are long gone. Stilicho for example had something like 15,000 posts around the internet on this case, after the acquittal he never made another post, not even a goodbye to his guilter crew.


It was nice to see the majority walk away. They either realized they were wrong or they accepted the final ruling. Either way, it's over. I'm happy about that.

Stilicho had been around long before I got here, but in the time I saw him post he rarely added anything to the debate. He posted ad hominems against those who he regarded as, "defending your precious murderer," or stuff like that. When Nencini reconvicted he gloated a bit on JREF/ISF, predicting doom and gloom, but disappeared after the March 2015 exonerations.

Let's face it though. Most have disappeared since then anyway. JREF posting (and lurker viewing) went down 88% after March 2015, and the convo on JREF would have disappeared all together if not for Vixen's guilter factoids, and people responding to her me included.

What's been discovered recently (due to sloppy management of sock puppet accounts) is that there are fewer guilters actively posting these days than anyone thought. Anyway, people are getting on with their lives - athough no one has a right to pry, one wishes that the Kercher's themselves have come to some peace through this ordeal, an unimaginable one when you think of it. Ironically Andrea Vogt said it best back in 2015 after the acquittals, when she outed Monday-morning guilter detectives - who she cited as only continuing the Kercher's pain by claiming that the legal odyssey had not been definitively closed.


I remember Stilicho. Glad to see he moved on.
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby Numbers » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:07 am

Annella wrote:This is an interesting PDF for those interested in DNA issues. I learnt much reading here!

Published November 2017

Forensic DNA Analysis
A Primer for Courts.

https://royalsociety.org/~/media/about- ... courts.pdf


Annella, thanks for point out this excellent summary of forensic DNA analysis.
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Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Postby ScifiTom » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:50 am

RoseMontague wrote:
Bill Williams wrote:
Bruce Fischer wrote:
Zrausch wrote:It's a bit of a self selecting crowd at this point I guess, since only the delusional would be sticking around now. Those that saw it was over (the majority) are long gone. Stilicho for example had something like 15,000 posts around the internet on this case, after the acquittal he never made another post, not even a goodbye to his guilter crew.


It was nice to see the majority walk away. They either realized they were wrong or they accepted the final ruling. Either way, it's over. I'm happy about that.

Stilicho had been around long before I got here, but in the time I saw him post he rarely added anything to the debate. He posted ad hominems against those who he regarded as, "defending your precious murderer," or stuff like that. When Nencini reconvicted he gloated a bit on JREF/ISF, predicting doom and gloom, but disappeared after the March 2015 exonerations.

Let's face it though. Most have disappeared since then anyway. JREF posting (and lurker viewing) went down 88% after March 2015, and the convo on JREF would have disappeared all together if not for Vixen's guilter factoids, and people responding to her me included.

What's been discovered recently (due to sloppy management of sock puppet accounts) is that there are fewer guilters actively posting these days than anyone thought. Anyway, people are getting on with their lives - athough no one has a right to pry, one wishes that the Kercher's themselves have come to some peace through this ordeal, an unimaginable one when you think of it. Ironically Andrea Vogt said it best back in 2015 after the acquittals, when she outed Monday-morning guilter detectives - who she cited as only continuing the Kercher's pain by claiming that the legal odyssey had not been definitively closed.


I remember Stilicho. Glad to see he moved on.


To everyone

Yeah I miss Stilicho, & Hammer as well even I am glad they both moved on!!!
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